Wednesday, April 16, 2008

Seeking some . . i dunno

Okay everyone, please go here before reading this going-to-be-incredibly-long post:
http://aponderingheart.com/blog/?p=353#comment-1076 then (or perhaps before)
http://aponderingheart.com/blog/?p=341

Not to go out and bible bash or get arrogant christian angry, but i hate to seebiblically incorrect views, supported witht he bible, reply to them, then get corrected and told im biblically incorrect (which i found quite distressing to read). So, eric and paul, the only two that read my blog but also two biblically sound guys, if u read this just i seekign some other opinions. Okay.

So that first link up there is an article by this home schooled girl in America called Jocelyn or something. She has very different ideas to me and my primary concern is her idea about God's perfect will for women. Not saying I'm not open to other ideas, just . . . i don't wanna give the wrong idea, so below is my reply to her post, and following her reply to my comment.

MY REPLY:
Sorry to sound very critical in this comment, i think it might just be my nature :)I just wouldn’t want any christian to read their beliefs into the bible. Having only skim read much of this article and part one i may have got the wrong idea, forgive me if i have, particularly in relation to this first point:I hope you are not condoning the belief that men are above women and that we are not created equal; we are created equal but differently. And, although i would need to check this, i believe that men are to be in authority within the church, in regards to teaching the word (something being sadly ignored increasingly by many churches). Your mention of college (or university here in Australia!) being full of unbelievers and partly reason not to go worried me. Our great commission in this world is the preach the gospel to all! How are we to do this if we don’t know any unbelievers because we keep away from them out of fear of influence? (I believe genuine personal relationship to be the most effective form of evangelism.) Influence by the secular world is a concern, but having non-christian friends is not the only way we are influenced by a sinful world. we live in it!I also must, finally before i earn myself the reputation of an arrogant, severely opinionated Christian (perhaps too late?), emphasise that i don’t believe God’s single, utmost role for women is to be married. (1 Corinthians 7). In fact, the previously mentioned passage states that we can do more for the work of God single than we can married! Which appears to some to be against marriage at all - but it’s not. Many women never do marry, and without the cares of a husband or family, that woman can focus wholly on the work of the Lord, such as in mission (not to say only single women may perform mission successfully, but it’s certainly, in a sense, ‘easier’). The most important work that God has set before us is to go into the world and be a light - to have such love for ‘our neighbour’ that our utmost concern for them will be their eternal future and as a result we will share the gospel with them.Again, sorry if this sounds overly critical, but i just wanted to express my concerns. I would be deeply concerned if i have expressed any of this in such a way that it appears biblically incorrect. Plus there’s probably lots of typos sorry, i just can’t seem to type without them.So anyway, just an attempt at constructive criticism, please don’t be offended.

HER REPLY TO ME:
Hi there Allison [Editors note: okay, she called me allison. My name was there cut and copy! lol],Thanks for taking the time to comment and state your opinion. Here is my reply:
“I hope you are not condoning the belief that men are above women and that we are not created equal”First of all, men and women are created quite differently. Some things they are equal in, some things they’re not. Men and Women are absolutely spiritually equal in God’s sight. We are both sinful, and we both need God’s grace to be forgiven. However, the Bible portrays clear and distinct roles for men and women. Men are to be leaders, and women are to be followers. The Bible does NOT say that women are to be submissive to all men. Girls are to be under the authority of their fathers and wives are to be under the authority of their husbands.
I definitely agree with your statement here “men are to be in authority within the church, in regards to teaching the word (something being sadly ignored increasingly by many churches)”. You are absolutely right. This is clearly stated in 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
I think that the whole idea of “going to college to fulfill the Great Commission” is one of Satan’s lies to get people into the world, especially young ladies, when satan knows their place is at home. Satan is the Father of Lies and he has been working on his techniques of conniving Believers into such situations and beliefs for AGES. You said you didn’t really read my post, and I would encourage you do so AND read the comments.
The Lord can use ANYTHING for His glory. He is God, but that doesn’t mean it’s his PERFECT will for your life!
Are you saying that because you’re not going to a public place you’re not fulfilling the Great Commission? I believe that in everything I do and say, if it is of Christ, it will be a light and a witness that Jesus Christ is reigning in my life and that he is Saviour of ALL! Besides the fact that I know of several young ladies who are taking college at home.
Please make sure you read these comments:http://aponderingheart.com/blog/?p=353#comment-1073http://aponderingheart.com/blog/?p=353#comment-1076
As for your comment on i don’t believe God’s single, utmost role for women is to be married. The verse you referred is often used out of context. The verses before Paul talks about remaining single are about man and woman being married, and THEN he says “I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.”, which is him saying it’s not the Lord’s commandment or words. Those are Paul’s, a human’s, words. Not God’s. In the beginning God made woman to be the helpmeet. That is purpose and design. It is God’s plan for woman to marry.
In the Beginning God made Adam and then he made Eve to be a helpmeet to Adam, to her husband, and to bear him children. That is our purpose as women. Not that we are lowly, worthless creatures because we ARE NOT! But did God change our design since the beginning? No.
I don’t believe in single woman being missionaries. I believe that if she is to go to another country, it will be with a man and she will be his helpmeet in that ministry. Just because many great women have done works for the Lord, doesn’t mean that was His plan for her. The Bible says there is God’s acceptable will, his good will, and perfect will (Romans 12: 2). Obviously I would want the perfect will but that is not always possible. Read here: http://aponderingheart.com/blog/?p=367
I think you are mistaken about your view on single women. In Genesis 2:24 says that a man is to leave is wife and mother and cleave unto his wife and they shall be as one flesh. So if you’re not going to marry, you are to remain under your parents, doing everything to serve the Lord.
Please don’t ever believe that being a wife and mother is burden, which prevents you from focusing on the Lord. I know a great many women who are married and are fully devoted to serving the Lord, and they do. Besides do we realize that when Jesus gave the GC he was only talking to his disciples? Not to the multitudes? Now, this doesn’t mean we aren’t to share the Gospel, because we are. However, it doesn’t mean that everyone is called to the work of a missionary and go out into the world. The Bible says they will know you are my disciples if you love one another - which means if we are Christians people should be able to see that in EVERYTHING we do.
I really do thank you for taking the time to write out all your thoughts on the matter, but in some areas, I think you are truly misinformed and some things you are Biblically-incorrect.
Blessings to you!



So hopefully you can see what I'm worried about?


The verses before Paul talks about remaining single are about man and woman
being married, and THEN he says “I speak this by permission, and not of
commandment.”, which is him saying it’s not the Lord’s commandment or words.
Those are Paul’s, a human’s, words



First I'm worried at her saying anything in the bible is not god breathed or the word of god. I see her point but . . .
I also don't really understand what she means when she says that the verses about remaining single are about being married??If anyone has an idea? But I'll say that the verses that deal with being single are about being single. We've had a sermon on that passage and it was very clear i thought.

That is purpose and design. It is God’s plan for woman to marry.


I can't coherently form a reply to this statement. But I'm sure its not correct. Please help? Because that is her big thing. She goes on to say that because women are to be submissive and be married we can't go to college or be missionaries while single.

College? University? So while we wait to get married, we hang around home and suck our parents money while we could be out earning a living of our own. I can't remember the reference (sorry) but Paul tells possibly the Thessos (?) to make sure they work by their own hands and are not a burden on anyone. What if the women never marries? Sorry Jocelyn, but you seem to think everyone will marry, but they don't. What happens when her parents die? What does she do then? she's a burden to society.

Plus, as i said in my reply to her article, I don't think God's perfect will is for women to get married! It's for us to tell everyone we can about Him!! If we are held back form doing this because we're single (as in being a missionary) what does that say? She also said:

However, it doesn’t mean that everyone is called to the work of a
missionary and go out into the world. The Bible says they will know you are my
disciples if you love one another - which means if we are Christians people
should be able to see that in EVERYTHING we do.


Which was in reply to my comment on her saying college was full of non-Christians but i said if we cut ourselves off from non-chritsians, how are we to evangelise? No not everyone is to be a missionary, but we are all called to spread God's word, which means in a sense we are all called to be missionaries. Get me? What use is it to say that people will see we are christian by our acts if we don't SEE non-christian people at all. I wasn't saying your actions can't show our faith. In fact i said personal relationship is a very effective form of evangelism, and tied up in that is that person seeing just by the way you live that there is something different.

Ahh guys i feel I'm doing a bad job at presenting a biblically correct view (spec. as i don't quite the bible!). I think I'm pretty bad at explaining stuff but just an opinion would be nice if you can spare the time?? And i don't want to go back and be like HA look at this. I was right do dooo.

So yeah, long post, but important. I'm just worried! I hate biblically incorrect views!! And her going on abotu a helpmeet was a bit perplexing. God designed woman ebcause man needed her so he wasn't lonely, not just to look after the home i thought. If there's some part of the Bible that supports that and i've missed it . . . enlighten me please!! She quote a verse that said something about women (among other things) keeping the home but *sigh* that surely isn't decrying any career for women if they keep home as well? ahhh
(Seriously that bit that said i was truly misinformed was totally upsetting, cos i take it as a comment on everyone who's taught me!)
[Editor's note] okay so this girl has thoroughly confused me as to what she'd saying. I think she'd totally against women havign a career. But she talks of some people who run their own business and says she wants to pursue graphic design and publishing? She quote the bible for her view, but times were different then would be my reply. As i have said, sh'es thoroughly confused me.
:( i'm sad now.

7 comments:

sejtraav said...

I took a while to formulate a response to this. I guess i hadn't really thought about marriage much, and i'm not female - so it at first didn't relate to me too much. Hovever this is what I came up with, and also posted on the other blog:

"A RESPONSE TO “AFTER HIGH-SCHOOL”
The following is my take on Jocelyn’s two articles “After High-School”, and the post “Finding Mr Right”, as well as Alyssa and Jocelyn’s replies to this post. I found them very thought-provoking, and after some thinking time - here are my thoughts:


-- My first point may be seen as pedantry, but I believe providing accurate and true information is essential for any discussion - using inaccurate information can serve to portray a tainted view of things.

In the above post, you write:
“Last year, I heard a report about the Chinese Government having to ask, and even pay some, Chinese women to have at least two children to keep up the population.”
However, this is in fact the opposite of what is really happening. First of all, China is still a very communist country, and for it’s government to be paying it’s citizens for anything is quite surprising. Secondly, China has an incredibly large population! It has no need to keep up it’s population. And thirdly, it’s a well documented fact that China’s official policy is the complete opposite to encouraging women to have children: they’ve actually made it illegal to have more than one child! China wouldn’t be paying women to have children - they are making it illegal for them to do so! (You can read about China’s one child law at: http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/a/onechild.htm)
Again, it may sound pedantic, but I believe we must build any arguments on accurate truthful details.


-- I also would like to comment on your use of dictionary definitions. In this post, you have used the definition of “college” from an 1828 dictionary for use on today’s colleges/universities. I think in some circumstances, going back to earlier definitions of words can be helpful, especially when dealing with the biblical text. I commend your use of the 1828 dictionary to found the real meaning of the word blaspheme in your earlier post. This is appropriate because the bible itself is an ancient book, and was converted to English a long time ago. Therefore, as you did, we should endeavor to find the real meaning of the words, and a past dictionary can be helpful with this. Basically, you used an old dictionary to get the definition for an old word - which is what should be done. However, I have an issue when you use an archaic definition of a word, and attribute it to things of today. A college, back in 1828, could very well have been “assembly or society of men”, however today we use the word in a completely different context. If we look at “college” in a contemporary dictionary, which is more appropriate because it is something that exists now, we get the definition of: “an institution of higher learning, esp. one providing a general or liberal arts education rather than technical or professional training” (from dictionary.com). College no longer means a society of men, but a place of learning. And I cannot see God condemning a place of learning.


-- I am also uncomfortable with your comments on 1 Corinthians 7:6. You say: 
“The verse you referred is often used out of context. The verses before Paul talks about remaining single are about man and woman being married, and THEN he says “I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.”, which is him saying it’s not the Lord’s commandment or words. Those are Paul’s, a human’s, words. Not God’s.”

The verse is question, in the KJV, reads: “But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment”

I agree with you on one sentence in your above quote - the verse is often used out of context. I am a big believer in looking at Bible verses in the context of the verses around them, and in context with the entire bible. However I believe you have got the context wrong. In the verse before this one, Paul has not even started to talk about single men or women. He has only talked about married couples. This verse needs to be read in relation to the one before it. Paul says, (in the NIV): 
“Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command.” (1 Corintihans 7:5-6). 
If you read the preceding verses as well, you will see Paul is talking about abstinence from sex within marriage - NOT about whether to marry or not. He is saying not to deprive your husband or wife from sexually relations - unless you both agree, and only so that you may devote yourselves in prayer, but they must come back together after a time to prevent temptation. Then Paul says the verse “But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment”
We’ve now read the verse in context and can see that Paul in no way was implying this wasn’t part of God’s Word, but he is saying we have permission to pause our sexual relations with our partner under the conditions he detailed - but were are not commanded to - we don’t have. This is what Paul means when he says: “But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment” We are permitted to, but do not have to. Perhaps, looking at “The Message” version of the Bible (I do not normally like to read a paraphrased bible, but, if read with a proper interpretation, it can give some insight due to it’s contemporary language. For Corinthians 7:5-6, it says:
 “Abstaining from sex is permissible for a period of time if you both agree to it, and if it's for the purposes of prayer and fasting—but only for such times. Then come back together again. Satan has an ingenious way of tempting us when we least expect it. I'm not, understand, commanding these periods of abstinence—only providing my best counsel if you should choose them.”


-- Also, you say in your comments that “Those are Paul’s, a human’s, words. Not God’s.” This comment does not fit in with the consensus of the Bible. I noticed another 'comment-er' has already pointed out the verse in 2 Timothy 3 which says “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”.
ALL of the bible is God’s Word. This must be stressed. While God worked through men to write the Bible, every single word is from the mind of God. There are no exceptions - if we say one verse is not God’s Word, what credibility does that dive to every other verse? All Scripture is God-breathed.

-- In many ways, it seems as if you are condemning both learning and using of one’s gifts to glorify the Lord. There is nothing wrong with learning about God’s creation and going on to a tertiary education can be an excellent way to learn of the amazing intricate detail of God’s world. God also commands us to use our gifts. If a woman or man has a gift in a particular area, they are commanded to use it to glorify God. And an excellent way to develop our gifts for service is to go to a college or university to lear to use your gift and not to waste - it was given to you for a reason! To not use it would be disobedient to God’s command to use our gifts to glorify Him.

-- I do not think you can define whether or not a woman must marry. It must be taken on a case by case basis. Everyone has a different role in the body of Christ. Just as we are not all called to be minister, or missionaries, we are not all called to be married. In 1 Corinthians it also says: “Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”
Paul says that the unmarried do not have to marry - but if they are tempted to sin, they should marry to avoid sinning. But he recognizes marriage is not for everyone, and God calls some to a life with no marriage - and in that case, those people should use the additional time and effort they have to further God’s Kingdom. Paul wants us to find the best way of life that will serve the Lord most faithfully, whether that be in marriage or out of marriage: “I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 7:35)
Reading the entirety of 1 Corinthians 7 and recognising it all as God’s Word would be a great place to start to learn about what God says about marriage. In this case, I found The Message version particularly helpful (but read it along with the KJV or NIV). I am not saying marriage is at all wrong - but not all are called to it. Most are, but it should be entered into seriously with alot of thought and prayer - not just rushed into to please God, because it won’t. Marriage provides a wonderful way to serve the Lord by loving your spouse, and raising Godly children, but as I stresses above, it is not for everyone. To tell a woman she must get married is not what God wants - she may be called to a life of celibacy.

-- Finally, I’d like to encourage a positive, welcoming, and friendly attitude on this blog. You say yourself that we should use a friendly, conversational tone, and that is what I’ve tried to do. Your reply to Alyssa saying “I think you are truly misinformed and [in] some things you are Biblically-incorrect” although you may not have meant so, comes across quite harsh and not in a loving tone. Perhaps we should all watch ow we converse with each other online - but we aren’t all perfect, and I’d like to say in my post there is no intent of being mean, judgmental, or derogatory. I intend only to have a positive conversation which will build others up in their faith. Thank you for your blog, and the opportunity to discuss such matters with much peace and mutual agreement (or disagreement at times).

"

I found this site helpful too: http://www.thirdmill.org/newfiles/ric_pratt/NT.Pratt.1Corinthians.7.1-40.html

Don't be discouraged!

Paul

cursoryglance said...

I think my comment on her blog may have been disapproved - she's posted twice since I commented, and it still says my comment is awaiting moderation.
I guess shes living up to her site rules:
"the only free speech on this blog is MINE. I have the right to delete any comment that I deem necessary"
it's no way to have a healthy discussion. however, it may get approved soon...

| : alyssa : | said...

Did she really say that?

cursoryglance said...

in her "rules post": http://aponderingheart.com/blog/?p=314
i feel like i'm talking behind her back here, but it's a bit hard to talk with her when your comments aren't approved.

| : alyssa : | said...

ahh how very true lol

cursoryglance said...

From A Pondering Heart;
"I received two comments on this post of which I don’t have the time to publish/reply right now. I have far too many article deadlines of which need my attention. I do apologize.

Miss Alyssa (above) was looking for answers to her questions so I will direct the commenters there to leave a reply with their explanations.

Besides I already stated in Part I, I was speaking to young ladies as those are the only people I am qualified to teach.

Thanks! Be Blessed!"

cursoryglance said...

My comment is no longer awaiting moderation on her site - instead it's gone altogether.
Presumably deleted.
I find that quite sad and insulting. Taking the time to write a response which is then deleted. Not sure If I should re-comment...